Billy Graham, the disappointing enigma

Billy Graham: Prayer, Politics, Power
Directed by Sara Colt and written by Keven Mcalester
American Experience Series, PBS, 2021, 1:51:41

4 Stars

Billy Graham (1918-2018) is widely revered and beloved as the “greatest” Christian evangelist of the 20th Century. Any criticism of Graham is considered blasphemy by most evangelicals, but I’m definitely NOT a fan for several reasons that will be detailed below.

“Billy Graham: Prayer, Politics, Power” first aired on PBS on May 17th. This biographical documentary spans Graham’s entire life. In 1944, Graham began his career as an evangelist affiliated with Youth for Christ. He eventually branched out on his own and his 1949 Los Angeles tent crusade received a tremendous boost from Roman Catholic media mogul, William Randolph Hearst, who ordered his newspaper editors to “Puff Graham.” Graham alienated his fundamentalist supporters when he ignominiously accepted the backing of liberal clergymen in organizing his 1957 New York City crusade, part of a calculated strategy by Graham and allies, Carl Henry and Harold Ockenga, to create a more ecumenical “New Evangelicalism” movement. Graham eventually enlisted the support of local Roman Catholic bishops in organizing his crusades. Catholics who came forward at Graham’s crusades were referred back to Catholic workers who counseled the seekers that their acceptance of Christ was only a reaffirmation of their infant baptism and confirmation.

To further increase his popularity and influence, Graham forged a close relationship with President Dwight Eisenhower. At the height of the Cold War standoff with atheist Russia, Graham influenced Eisenhower to meld patriotism and religion by directing that “In God We Trust” be stamped on currency and that “…under God” be inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance. American Civil Religion was/is antithetical to Jesus Christ and genuine Christianity because it presents God as a nebulous “Supreme Being” that’s palatable to all American religionists – Catholics, nominal “Protestants,” Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc. It was the glue that bound patriotic Americans together in the face of advancing Soviet communism. Even today with the steady rise of atheism, Americans of all religious persuasions still join together at ball games and other public events and sing, “God Bless America.” Graham would go on to have an even closer relationship with another president, Richard Nixon, but would afterwards distance himself from politics following the ignominy of the Watergate scandal and Nixon’s resignation. However, Graham’s hobnobbing with presidents set the table for the Christian nationalists who followed, including Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Graham began drifting into Universalism in the mid-1970s. At a September 1977 interview session with McCall’s magazine journalist, James Michael Beam, Graham candidly revealed that he no longer believed people in foreign lands who had not heard the Gospel were going to hell. Incredulous? Hear Graham for yourself below in this 1:30 video snippet from 1997 tell “positivity gospel” propagator, Robert Schuller, that he believed all religions and even atheism were legitimate pathways to God.

I appreciated this PBS documentary for its critical examination of Billy Graham. Yes, many souls trusted in Jesus Christ as Savior through Graham’s ministry, however, Graham had several major flaws, including his strong desire for popularity, prestige, and political influence, his trailblazing propagation of ecumenism with Roman Catholicism, and his drift into Universalism. After trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior and leaving Roman Catholicism and its false salvation system of sacramental grace and merit in the early-1980s, I was shocked to discover that Billy Graham, evangelicalism’s favorite son, fully endorsed the Roman Catholic church with its false gospel as a Christian entity. Graham betrayed ex-Catholic evangelicals and Roman Catholics who needed to hear the genuine Gospel. The legacy of Billy Graham is that of a beloved evangelist who actually undermined and betrayed the Gospel on multiple levels. It’s not surprising that Satan would use Graham’s lust for numbers and popularity to subvert the Gospel.

See the PBS Graham documentary for a limited time here.

Postscript: Influential evangelical pastor, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, declined to support Billy Graham and his crusades in the U.K. because of Graham’s ecumenism with liberal, nominal “Protestant” Bible-deniers and Roman Catholic prelates. Lloyd-Jones also objected to Graham’s use of “decisionism” (i.e., the use of the “sinner’s prayer” to affect conversions). Millions of people who attended Graham’s crusades undoubtedly had false conversion experiences based on coming forward at Graham’s invitations without true repentance.

124 thoughts on “Billy Graham, the disappointing enigma

    1. Thanks, Beth! PBS is definitely not a friend of evangelical Christianity, but this documentary actually does a good job of showing how Graham’s ambitions led him to compromises and betrayals of the Gospel. Graham’s drift into soft-Universalism raises the question of whether “the greatest evangelist of the 20th Century” was actually saved.

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  1. I’m ex Catholic too, I know how destructive false doctrine can be, but I think it’s equally destructive if we Christians spent much time figuring out the flaws amongst each other instead of doing more constructive things like spreading the gospel, what would a non Christian think if they found us Criticizing one of our own, we are afterall equally with flaws. Let God be the Judge of whether our service is gold or straw and should be set on fire. This is my view.

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    1. Your view is not Scriptural and is typical of today’s lack of discernment in the church. When a person is saved from a burning building (Roman Catholicism’s false salvation system), what would they say of another person who placates the other tenants by telling them it’s a false alarm and the building is fine? He is a scoundrel. Martyn Lloyd-Jones was faithful to God and to the genuine Gospel when he distanced himself from Graham and cautioned others.

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      1. I get what you are saying Tom, but when did cautioning others and distancing yourself become Christian ways of dealing with things. What happened to love your neighbor, tolerate each other etc. I think your approach is abit Roman Catholic where they don’t trust God to be present, to deal with every thing, To save those people in the burning building.

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      2. Actually, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit through the writings of the apostles had A LOT to say about false teachers, false gospels, and compromisers and accommodators like Graham.

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      3. Alright ,I understand what you are saying. But I still think Graham did such a great job and I wanna give Him credit for that, He is in my circle of great authors, alongside CS LEWIS, CH Spurgeon, AW Tozer etc. And so far , I have no complaints actually, I didn’t know your side of the story till today.

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      4. You can’t make one man responsible for something the entire Church needs to be responsible for. Discernment is a gift of the Spirit and can’t really be Billy Graham’s fault that many Christians don’t cultivate it. Afterall ,we all know the Roman Catholic Church ain’t the only one that abhors false doctrine.

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      5. Emily, may I add something here? The Apostle Paul did more than “caution” believers, he had an urgency and grief. When he spoke of “savage wolves” besieging the brethren he wasn’t speaking of persecutors but something WORSE, those who would “distort the truth with false doctrine and lead them astray”. Acts 20:29-30
        That’s the heart of a true shepherd.

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      6. But for me Lisa , I don’t see any real crisis, I can’t see what Tom is saying, I find it so easy to understand why Billy Graham wouldn’t take a stand on Roman Catholic doctrine, I feel like if I were Him,I would do the same thing,focus on Christ, preach the Cross, salvation by the blood of the lamb, have people give their lives to Christ, and tell them it’s okay for them to go back to their Churches , all in the hope that the good Lord who has begun the good work in them will finish it,He will teach them, He will show them what’s right and true and that if they chose to leave the Roman Catholic Church,it would be their decision.To me it’s like preaching to a prostitute, telling them about Christ while at the same time ignoring their sin because God will take care of everything

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      7. Sad. Your accommodation and tolerance of false churches and their false gospels is the antithesis of what Apostle Paul taught in his epistles. Your arguments typify the spiritual adultery rampant within evangelicalism today.

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      8. Well, I left the Roman Catholic Church a few years back, and for me what’s sadder is that I have not found a Church I can belong to, I criticise all churches and that’s crazy. Afterall a church is a body of Christians and we are all imperfect. Oh, but the Catholic Church is the worst for me,I can never go back there.

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      9. I wish to be a preacher one day Tom, and from my walk with Christ I know how so very easy it is for a man of God today to utter false doctrine tomorrow, I mean I may trust God today and walk out of my house tomorrow,trusting myself and my Judgement and fail so horribly to preach only the Truth. If that happened,my hope is that instead of Christians coming out to say I’m sent directly from hell,like some of the Christian criticism out there does, I hope they will instead talk to me in love or pray to God for me etc etc,

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      1. No, I don’t think it does. But that’s something I wouldn’t want to be saying because most of my experience with the RCC is personal, it’s alot more difficult and you make it seem so easy. I mean Rome may be sending out the false gospel but they know the true gospel, they sing songs like I need no other argument ,no other plea ,it’s enough that Jesus died and that he died for me. Now that I have left that Church, I don’t want to partake in criticising it, unless ofcourse an RCC member asked me what I probably thought of the eucharist or why I left etc etc. Otherwise ,it’s time to move on ,

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      2. Emily I don’t think it’s easy for you. Hope my comment isn’t taken that way. I imagine this conversation can be emotional along with this topic. I do think the official teaching of the Catholic Church denies the biblical gospel and its own teaching lead to the conclusion of doing works to be right before God (which never saves). I have known Tom the blogger here for some years and I think he sincerely is concerned and love Catholics and Spirit filled Christians enough to speak the truth about legitimate issues with Roman Catholicism. Hope you are able to read this comment

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      3. Oh, the other thing is whatever Rome does, it ain’t as simple, but I know it’s not just about how we are saved, it’s about an amazingly clever system built for over 1800 yrs and more of how to have everything Christian and leave Jesus Christ out. The way the Roman Catholic Church is structured is such a beautiful work of man, such a comfortable way of a life without God, which is geniously awful or terrible.

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  2. Great post brother, I did not know much of this background. I always wondered about Graham’s ongoing alliances with prominent people, was he calling them to repent? Obviously not.
    We truly need to know God’s word and exercise discernment. Jesus never said you’ll know them by their charisma, popularity or even their words but by their fruit.
    Thank you Tom, important post.

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  3. Oh, and I don’t dislike Billy Graham for associating with the Roman Catholics ,I mean to me it looks humble and kind. I left the Roman Catholic Church, I’m still home so I get into fights over that with my parents but my reason is always that almost all of their Church doctrines are not Christian, I don’t plan on ever going back . But sometimes I wonder how are they to hear the gospel if all we do is argue with them about deeper spiritual things like their Hail Mary madness etc

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  4. It was so humble of him, asin Billy Graham to find common ground with them, I mean nowhere does it say he agreed with their doctrines I think, all he did was maybe say let us stick to Mere Christianity,like C S Lewis says it, lets stick to the Cross and what happened there and Trust God to deal with the rest.

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    1. RE: I mean nowhere does it say he agreed with their doctrines

      You’re sadly misinformed.

      “In Milwaukee on October 21, 1973, Graham said, “This past week I preached in a great Catholic Cathedral a funeral sermon for a close friend of mind who was a Catholic [publisher James Strohn Copley], and they had several bishops and archbishops to participate, and as I sat there going through the funeral Mass that was a very beautiful thing and certainly straight and clear in the gospel, I believe, there was a wonderful little priest that would tell me when to stand and when to kneel and what to do.” (Billy Graham, Church League of America, p. 84).

      https://www.wayoflife.org/database/billy_graham_and_rome.html

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      1. Alright, that was definitely wrong, who sits in mass and sees nothing wrong, but then again it was a funeral and one man can’t be expected to deal with all things maybe it isn’t what God called him to do, he ain’t the world’s savior neither is he the Church’s saviour. But I might just be making excuses for Billy Graham. You are right Tom,I need to read more about his life. But I will still leave judgement of the worth of His ministry to God . People can obviously be so wrong because we base on numbers so much, and that’s wrong

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  5. Great informative post Tom. Although I’ve been quite familiar with Graham’s ways for quite some time, I still find it upsetting to read about what he’s done and said. I guess that’s as it should be. Sickening.

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    1. Thanks, Cathy. I still remember how surprised and upset I was after I was first saved and learned Graham embraced the RCC as a legitimate, Gospel-preaching church.

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  6. Fascinating discussion! I won’t go so far as to say Billy Graham is unsaved but he definitely had flaws. I also find very little Scripture support for altar calls and for “asking Jesus into our heart.” Like you said, PBS is highly antievangelical however we do have to admit when they are correct. I will have to watch this at some point. Thanks for the review!!!

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    1. Thanks, Mandy. The only reason I bring up the question of Graham’s salvation was his drift into semi-Universalism. Did you watch the 2-minute video? He espouses the RC view of salvation via whatever religion a person follows. Anyway, I don’t want to make a huge issue of it. Thanks for chiming in!

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  7. Great post, Tom.

    I watched this after you first mentioned it a few posts ago. I think I would have given it 4/5 stars as well. As I’ve mentioned to you before, I was aware of Martyn Lloyd-Jones and his unwillingness to support Mr. Graham’s lack of concern about sending people back to Catholic churches after going forward at one of his Crusades. Martyn Lloyd Jones was right not to support Billy Graham.

    At the point in the documentary where Billy is being criticized by Catholic leaders (for I can’t remember what) I thought “Why didn’t he just cut ties with them in the beginning or right then?”
    A few years ago I posted the video you have put up where Billy is having that discussion with Robert Schuller. That was a telling video and one, I hope, that Billy regretted having.

    The reason I wouldn’t give the show a final star is because I don’t think it discussed Billy’s theology as much as it could have. Of course, what was I to expect from PBS?

    I still enjoy listening to Billy Graham’s sermons, particularly his earlier ones even though I haven’t heard one for some time. I can see why many were moved by his messages. His appeal for all to “look to Christ” for their answers instead of money, sex, drugs, power, etc. struck a cord with the people at that time. When the cameras panned the crowds the always seemed interested and hungry. Put a guy like him out there today, take away the theological or character problems you have mentioned, and I wonder what the response would be?

    I really can’t say for certain that I know what Billy Graham’s motives were and what caused him to make the bad decisions he made. Was it strictly because of a lust for numbers and popularity or was it mostly a lack of theological understanding or lack of wisdom? I haven’t studied the issue enough to come to a conclusion.

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    1. Thanks for all of the good comments, Chris. I’m glad you were able to watch the documentary. I don’t recall the specific segment about the Catholic leaders, but my short-term memory is fading a bit.

      You raise a good point about Billy Graham and theology. From what I’ve read about Graham, no one ever accused him of being a theologian. The depth of his theology, as I’ve read’ was pretty shallow. C. Henry, Ockenga, and E.J. Carnell provided the heavy theological lifting for the New Evangelicalism movement while Graham concentrated on the crusades. I’m definitely not a theologian and have had much less training than Graham, but even I understand the crux of the Reformation. Perhaps Graham’s ignorance can best be attributed to spiritual blindness. No doubt the unending pressure to “fill the seats and the coffers” also led to compromises and accommodations.

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      1. I don’t consider myself much of a theologian myself, Tom, but I also understand the great importance of the Reformation.

        And speaking of the Reformation, I remember Robert Scheuller wanting a “New Reformation.”

        Doing a quick internet search, anyone will find this:

        Robert Schuller, in his book Self-Esteem: the New Reformation, writes, ” I contend that his unfulfilled need for self-esteem underlies every act…over and over again that the core of man’s sin is not his depravity but a “lack of self-dignity”, Self-esteem is… the single greatest need facing the human race today.”

        And that’s all one needs to know about Mr. Scheuller’s theology.

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      2. Thanks. Typical Schuller. I’ve read that Schuller studied the originator of the “positivity gospel,” Norman Vincent Peale, and that Joel Osteen studied Schuller.

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      3. Typical indeed. I think your sources were good. I looked up Norman Vincent Peale and could not find anyone who influenced his theology. While looking, I found this interesting quote at Your Dictionary:

        “Asked to compare Peale with St. Paul, the two-time presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson of Illinois quipped that he found Paul appealing and Peale appalling.”

        Stevenson was a Unitarian and I’m sure they had as many differences in politics as they did in theology.

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      4. RE: I looked up Norman Vincent Peale and could not find anyone who influenced his theology.

        I briefly did the same. It appears Peale originated the “positivity gospel” by blending liberal Christianity and self-help, pop psychology. It’s interesting that Donald Trump attended Peale’s “church” while growing up and that Peale officiated at Trump’s first wedding ceremony.

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      5. The influence on Trump is interesting and I did see that when I was looking up Peale. I saw that Mr. Trump was “helped” through his recent election loss by things that he learned from Peale. I wish Trump had asked for more advise from solid Christians (who were already praying for him) for spiritual advise. Having Paula White in the White House is indicative of the spiritual wisdom of Trump whom we know isn’t a Christian because he has mentioned several times that he doesn’t feel the need to repent about anything. I voted for him because the other party’s platform is so far on the left.

        I’m sure you saw that Peale was just as involved in politics as Billy was. He was friends with Nixon and and Reagan awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom (the highest civilian honor in the United States) for his contributions to the field of theology.

        At least Billy backed away from becoming so personal with presidents after being so disappointed by Nixon.

        I remember that my Mom was a Nixon fan and how disappointed she was when she heard some of the language he used when tapes were published. I do wish some of our current leaders were as good in foreign affairs as Nixon was.

        Nixon’s involvement in the Watergate scandal still baffles me. He should have let the chips fall where they may because he had the election wrapped up. His efforts at coverup reveal some paranoia I think. I always felt that Ford had a much more presidential way about him anyway.

        Did you see that Peale was a 33° Scottish Rite Freemason?

        The following interesting bio states “family tradition played a role as father and grandfather, Clifford and Samuel Peale, had Masonic histories dating back to 1869.”

        It also mentions that “The Reverend Mr. Peale also became one of the earliest ministers to “consciously integrate psychological insights with religious concepts.”

        Last, there is this:

        “Brother Peale’s ultimate achievement was explained by J. Harold Ellens, editor of the Journal of Psychology and Christianity. Ellens said: “Norman Peale saw psychology and Christian experience as very compatible . . . he had the courage to stand pat on this position in spite of the opposition of the entire Christian church for nearly half a century. His genius was that he… translated psycho-theology into the language of the people.”

        http://www.knightstemplar.org/KnightTemplar/articles/20110521.htm

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  8. I remember years ago before we had the light on Graham we were witnessing to someone very devoted to “Mary” and Roman Catholicism. We asked them to tape a tv sermon by Graham for us hoping that they would watch the sermon and hear the Gospel. When we viewed the taped video we heard Graham praising Mother Teresa by saying she died with rosary beads in her hands. That was the last thing we wanted them to hear if they indeed watched the program while recording. I don’t know if they did or not, we didn’t want to ask. It’s an abominable thing for a so called minister of the Gospel to affirm someone in their idolatry and their false gospel. My Roman Catholic father also knew of Graham’s position on Rome and it was a hindrance to our witnessing to him.

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    1. Yes, Graham radically undermined Gospel witness to Catholics. There are very few missionaries dedicated to outreach to Catholics these days. One of the few, Mike Gendron, doesn’t receive a lot of invitations from churches.

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      1. But if you know how to reach out to Catholics, I’m all ears, I don’t know that. I gave my life to Christ at 16yrs,I’m now 19 and all I ever do is argue with my Roman Catholic friends.

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    1. Yesterday was mostly cutting the lawn, but it was very hot here in ROC, just like LA.

      Yeah, a lot of responses, especially from a pro-Graham individual who is a C.S. Lewis “Mere Christianity” ecumenist. I see she has another four comments waiting in the queue this morning.

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  9. Its been years ago I read Ian Murray’s eye opening book on Graham’s compromise. Your post made me think about it which I recommend for those who want a Christian scholarly That clip is definitely disturbing. I’m glad you shared it and there’s a lot of legitimate concern. Graham himself has admitted he’s not good with theology. I think he’s not only not good but his beliefs from interviews shows very serious concern.

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    1. Yes, Murray’s book is excellent.

      The 1977 McCall’s magazine interview and the video made twenty-years later with Schuller reveal Graham had drifted into semi-Universalism. It would be expected that an ardent evangelical ecumenist would eventually make the leap to Universalism.

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  10. I mean, Cathy , I’m from a RCC. So from experience I know that the journey to Christ was fully miraculous. But if someone had talked to me back then saying I’m idolatrous etc,I would never have listened to them. I gave my life to Christ after reading a novel, How to pray , and being convinced God wouldn’t probably approve of reciting prayers from hym books. But that author wasn’t criticising the RCC, he had just written to Christians about how to pray. So as evangelists, do you think Catholics are unchristian and should be saved or that they are improper Christians and should learn doctrine

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      1. It’s heartbreaking.. A friend of mine was saved at one of his crusades when he came to Sydney. But she is well aware now of the history behind it. Including his son, can’t think of his name right now .🤷🏻‍♀️

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      2. What an insidious message expressed by Graham when his ministry is examined as a whole: a mixture of the Gospel and the anti-Gospel.

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      3. Hi Tom many have not read this. Here’s a quote of Charles Haddon Spurgeon on Roman Catholicism:
        “We must have no truce, no treaty with Rome. War! War to the knife with her! Peace there cannot be. She cannot have peace with us – we cannot have peace with her. She hates the true Church and we can only say that the hatred is reciprocated. We would not lay a hand on upon her priests; we would not touch a hair of their heads. Let them be free but their doctrine we would destroy from the face of the Earth as a doctrine of evils. So let it perish O God and let that evil thing become as the fat of lambs. Into smoke let it consume; yea into smoke let it consume away.”

        Spurgeon took Romanism to task and condemned it he would today if he was alive on earth in our time. Rome has a false Mary and Christ who is sacrificed daily in a unbiblical Mass even the LBC 1689 condemns the popish Mass.

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      4. Thanks, Bible Guy! Yup, I very familiar with Spurgeon’s strong stand against Romanism.

        By the way, are you the same Bible Guy I used to dialogue with here at WordPress or are you a different BG?

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  11. Emily, you ask….

    “do you think Catholics are unchristian and should be saved or that they are improper Christians and should learn doctrine”

    The Roman Catholic Church preaches a false works based gospel that cannot save. RC’s need to be told and believe the true Gospel in order to be saved. They need to be told the difference. Roman Catholicism is not Christian. We must believe what the Scripture says and not base our beliefs on what we feel is right or our experiences. This is a very serious matter.

    Galatians 1: 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

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    1. But there are athousand Christians in each denomination out there who are not really Christians. That’s why I prefer C S Lewis’ Mere Christianity approach, I won’t contend any further, all I think is that RCC is a Christian denomination, they will seek the truth alittle, but mostly they will defend their beliefs if you attack them. So good luck with telling people who call themselves Christian, pagan or unchristian. All the best on your journey of telling Christians who maybe believe a false doctrine like all religions lead to God that they are not really Christians. Afterall, we do that alot, the minute we find a man who only prays on Sunday, drinks and is doing drugs maybe ,or someone who doesn’t think abortion is wrong or a fornicator ,we just wanna shout, You are not a Christian. I rest my case.

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      1. As for the RCC’s ,I don’t think they are Christian. But see my dad is an RCC , he helps out with Bible interpretation,his job is well a Bible translator ,he prays daily ,helps others , listens to the Bible daily, goes out on missions , they pray and cast out demons , they show the Jesus film to children in the village. And though I think he is not a Christian, I also think it has never ever been my place to make that judgement. Judge me if you will ,but I’m going to teach myself to stop calling people who call themselves Christian , unchristian just because I hate one character of their lives or I think their doctrine is false ,I will leave that Judgement to God alone . But I will pray about it first ofcourse.

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      2. Emilly, the Roman Communion is Christian in name only and is apostate. They have not only departed from thr Apostolic faith, but the Catholic faith of the ancient church.

        What does the scripture say? For teaching a different gospel, they are under an anathema (Gal 1:8-9). We are also not to fellowship with false religionists (Psalm 26:4-5, Eph 5:6-11, 2 John 1:9-11).

        Let’s look at a magisterial pronouncement from Vatican 2

        Do you believe Yahweh = Allah?

        Do you believe the Muslims to be part of the plan of salvation?

        Do you believe a Muslim can be saved by being good?

        Vatican II: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Moslems, these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. Nor is God Himself remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25–28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, who through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.Vatican Council II The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, Austin Flannery, O.P., General Editor (Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1980), Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium II:16, p. 367.

        This is very blatant apostasy.

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      3. That is true , but there’s another truth, if you walked from Church to church, you would find thousands of Christians,who are not Roman Catholic, but would still not see any problem with things like Allah and Yahweh are one and the same.

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      4. Here’s the difference. Their churches at a corporate level do not teach that Yahweh = Allah, so these individuals are ignorant or mistaken. If a “Protestant” church taught that, I would also say that their church has deviated into apostasy and needs to repent. The Roman Magisterium officially does this via Lumen Gentium, CCC 841.

        Tom also had a picture of John Paul II bowing down to a Quran and kissing it.

        What does God think about this? See Deut 13:1-5, the Roman magisterium is deserving of the death penalty.

        Here’s more scriptures to show you how serious it is, and why we should not fellowship with Romanists. Please read this, digest it, pray about and meditate on it.

        but they mixed with the nations and learned to do as they did.  They served their idols, which became a snare to them.
        Psalm 106:35‭-‬36 ESV

        The people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the Lord  and served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Syria, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the Ammonites, and the gods of the Philistines. And they forsook the Lord and did not serve him. So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of the Philistines and into the hand of the Ammonites,
        Judges 10:6‭-‬7 ESV

        And I will punish her for the feast days of the Baals when she burned offerings to them and adorned herself with her ring and jewelry, and went after her lovers and forgot me, declares the Lord .
        Hosea 2:13 ESV

        The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel:  are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
        1 Corinthians 10:16-21 ESV

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      5. I appreciate your efforts here, SB. She lost me when she mentioned C.S. Lewis and Spurgeon in the same sentence.

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      6. Do you have very close Roman Catholic friends, Have you ever fellowshipped with them ? Do you know them personally or are you the kind of person who generally depends on your knowledge? To me , a Roman Catholic Christian, is somebody who can say 9 right things about Christianity then one wrong thing, and then back this wrong thing up with the Bible. I don’t say they are Christian, but I also don’t think it’s my place to say they are unchristian or demons. And now that I’m nolonger fellowshipping with them, I don’t know what goes on there and I won’t judge what I don’t know. Really, you are going to look at doctrine and say the Adventists are not Christian,neither are the Mormons , the Anglicans are closer to the RCC so they also ain’t Christians etc and there’s only one true Church, the Baptists. That would also look like apostasy to me. And sometimes Christianity is really just a personal thing. Before you Judge RCC ,spend time getting to know the people themselves and not some Pope doctrine, If you want to reach out to them, Care enough to approach each one personally and differently.

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      7. Tom, she’s young (19?), naive and misguided. She said she accepted Christ at 16? So she’s also fairly new to the faith . She needs to be pointed in the right direction by mature believers. I’m a convert and I recall even in my 3rd year, I still viewed Romanists as Christians but with wacky beliefs. It wasn’t until I did a serious study, reading Ludwig Ott, Henry Denzinger and Vatican 2 did I truly see this institution as apostate.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. Really😳😳. Here’s the thing, I came to Christ God’s way, and He alone taught me and showed me the falsity of some Roman Catholic doctrines, I didn’t learn what I did from somebody. Plus ,when did age begin mattering. And the older I grow,the lesser time I spend criticising doctrine . You are right about somethings. But somehow you make complex things look so simple which makes me feel like you are not so experienced yourself.

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      9. Emilly, what is your basis for these assertions? Can you show me that the Bible teaches them? Otherwise, it’s your private opinion based on a subjective philosophical preference, not Christ or the word of God (Col 2:8).

        Re: Do you have friends…

        Yes and I have family on in-laws side too. All of them are either cultural or cafeteria Romanists. They need to be told the truth, that’s the loving thing to do (1 Cor 13:6, Eph 4:15).

        Re: 9 things right 1 thing wrong

        You are talking the individual whereas I mentioned the corporate entity. In any case, Jesus disagrees with you. Read Rev 2 and 3, talking about the apostasy of the churches in Asia Minor. Jesus threatened to remove their lamp stand (Rev 2:5). The true believers in apostate churches are commanded to stand firm in their faith and not adopt the false doctrines (Rev 2:24-25, Rev 3:4)

        The Judaizers added just one thing to the Gospel (Gal 5:2-6), and Paul placed them under an anathema (Gal 1:8-9). Do you know the significance of an anathema? It means a curse, a condemnation, setting someone outside the true body. Essentially Paul tells you to consider these people as unbelievers. Think about it, just adding one thing to the Gospel is anathema. How many things has Rome added? Papal infallibility, Papal supremacy, transubstantiation, worship of the eucharist, purgatory, indulgences, the treasury of merits, the assumption of Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, etc etc.

        Re: don’t think it’s my place

        You are commanded to judge with righteous judgement (John 7:24). Paul also expects you to judge (1 Cor 5:9-13). However, don’t be a hypocrite  (Matt 7:1-5).

        Re: doctrine

        The elders of the churches are commanded to hold firm to sound doctrine and rebuke those who contradict it (Titus 1:9, 1 Tim 1:3, 1:10, 4:6, 6:3).

        You are commanded to avoid smooth talkers who teach false doctrines (Rom 16:17-19).

        Re: Adventists, Anglicans, Mormons

        Why stop there? Why not include the Muslims? The Muslims really love and revere “Jesus (pbuh)”. Are you Islamophobic?

        Anglicans – Those who follow the authority of scripture and the 39 articles are brothers and sisters. Those (e.g. in the UK) who deviate and allow the Quran to be read in the house of God and who marry homosexuals, are apostates.

        On the surface, they look like the Romanists. That’s because the Vatican 2 Novus Ordo copied the Church of England liturgy. But the 39 articles are faithful to scripture.

        Adventists- Those who hold to the authority of scripture are brothers and sisters. Those who elevate Ellen White’s writings to the level of scripture practice a different gospel.

        Mormons- Different Jesus (2 Cor 11:4)

        Muslims- Also a different Jesus (2 Cor 11:4)

        Romanists- Different Gospel ( Trent Session 6 Canon 32, CCC 2010,  vs Gal 1:8-9, Gal 5:2-6, Rom 3:28, Gal 2:16) and different Jesus (CCC 1376-1378, Trent Session 22, Ch 2 and Canon 3 vs Heb 9:24-28, Heb 10:10-14, John 19:30)

        Any form of unity needs to be rooted in the truth (John 17:17). God requires that we worship him in truth and spirit (John 4:24).

        Re: judge RCC

        If you truly love these people, you need to tell them the truth. Love is rooted in the truth (1 Cor 13:6). It’s not loving to leave them on the wide path to destruction (Matt 7:13-14), letting them being taught to go after false gods like Allah and Pachamama.

        As the Scripture says,

        Revelation 18:4 ESV
        Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,  “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;

        Liked by 1 person

      10. Re: Really

        Yes. Please read the below and pray about it.

        Hebrews 5:11‭-‬14 ESV
        About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

        Don’t take this as a rebuke but as someone pointing you in the right direction.

        Re: make complex things look so simple…

        LOL, as opposed to making simple things complex? I’d say I’ve done a good job then.

        Re: not so experienced yourself

        I’ve dealt with Muslim dawahs, Romanists and Atheists. I’ve had atheists tell me that my knowledge of Church history, Textual Criticism and the Canon is way beyond that of the average pastor. I’ve even rebuked a pastor where he backed down, pointing out his false teachings, when he tried to shame ex-Romanists for being hostile to Rome.

        Tom, Jim and the rest here on this blog can attest to it. I’m not saying this to boast, but stating a fact along the lines of Paul in Gal 1:14, Phil 3:4.

        I know what I’m talking about and you are still a spiritually immature Christian. You need to find a good congregation where mature believers can guide you.

        Liked by 1 person

      11. Okay,thanks for your advice. But I still think like the Pastor you rebuked, that you need to get rid of your hostility towards the Romans before reaching out to them. To be fair,humanely speaking,most of them didn’t make up these doctrines but were born into them, and reaching out to them will be done only in God’s way, God’s timing,God’s power, it will always take a miracle. My ecumenism or kindness to them is from a place where you might be so freaked out by their disgusting blasphemy,but it’s almost always done in ignorance,in innocence,they cannot see the truth,they cannot see that they are blaspheming or saying the unsayable. I didn’t even know I had a spot of compassion in my heart😂

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      12. I recommend you read Nabeel Qureshi’s book, “Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus” Pg 95. When he was a Muslim, him and his dad used to laugh at folks like you, considering you to be silly. It was only after the foundations of Islam were torn apart that he came to Christ.

        Now, you don’t necessarily have to engage in polemics with most people. That is mostly reserved for hardened zealots or false teachers. You can be hostile to Romanism without being hostile to Romanists, just like you can be hostile to Islam without being hostile to Muslims.

        Do you love your father? If so, why would you want to withold the good news from him? Faith comes by hearing, so it’s your duty to tell him about the good news. You don’t have to say anything negative about Romanism, just tell your father that Christ alone is sufficient.

        For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
        Romans 10:10‭-‬17 ESV

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  12. We need to get one thing straight women CANNOT be pastors But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    1 Timothy 2:12-14 – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1%20Timothy%202:12-14&version=KJV

    For any Woman to say they want to be a pastor is patiently false and shows they don’t know this verse.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Actually I like to think that was just Paul’s personal opinion and it wasn’t spirit inspired. Oh, and I don’t really wanna be a Pastor because I think that will take alot of work, just a preacher really, but this doesn’t matter.

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  13. It’s good to hear from you as well Tom. I have seen the comments Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    Romans 4:8 – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans%204:8&version=KJV

    And Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Romans 5:1 – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans%205:1&version=KJV

    Are important and Romanism DENIES both of these verses. Many have not read the council of Trent like Canon 9 that damns every true Christian and damnation after damnation in Trent.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks, BG! It’s a bit frustrating responding to Emilly’s arguments. She’s very young and seems to be grounded in C.S. Lewis wide-is-the-way ecumenism. Yup, the RCC unabashedly proclaims justification via sacramental grace and merit, yet the unwitting still embrace it as a Christian entity.

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      1. Your welcome how many Christians do we know who like the movie the Passion of Christ Mel Gibson movie have seen parts of un never knew it was Roman Catholic until It was pointed out by pointed out by solid believers if I remember correctly and even Gibson admitted in EWTN article Mary is a co mediator.

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    2. Most of my friends know me as Critical because all I ever do is criticise the RCC, but I will do something else for a change, I will accuse you of having no love in your heart of hearts ,that you do know is impossible for a Christian. But my real issue is, Where is your trust in God, where is your weakness, your I cannot do anything good without thy Holyspirit, Is it now legal to share scriptural verses with hearts full of bitterness that we think we can justify ? When do we remember that without God’s even,even we wouldn’t know the Truth,or this is just unimportant?

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  14. And let’s not forget Romanism hates Reformed Theology and the sovereignty of God even in election where the Father gave to Jesus those who He would die for and save the elect.

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    1. Romanism also bows down to Allah, see Lumen Gentium Paragraph 16 and CCC 841. That institution is truly apostate and their lamp stand has been removed.

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      1. Can you show me from the Bible why it’s wrong to pass a judgement on the institutional Roman Communion, or the theology of Romanism? Jesus and Paul expect you to judge.

        “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are   ravenous wolves.  You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?  So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.  A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
        Matthew 7:15‭-‬20 ESV

        I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
        1 Corinthians 5:9‭-‬13 ESV

        For leading people to engage in ecumenism with Muslims and praying with them to Allah, the Popes and Bishops are deserving of the death penalty.

        “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
        Deuteronomy 13:1‭-‬5 ESV

        This is God’s word, not mine.

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  15. The arguments put forth by her are full of a lot of holes reminds me of a guy I know he claims he is a Protestant believes everything I have said salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone but I think he still defends Rome. I even added three of the 5 Solas to the prayer I prayed before Christmas dinner I asked him later if he knew what the 5 Solas were he had no idea.

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  16. If one is going to be consistent they will either keep believing in false lies and Romanism or will preach the truth to Catholics who have no gospel and a false gospel I mean even Ray Confort preaches to Catholics and shares the Gospel with them.

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  17. If my heart stopped right now and I died on what basis would I go to heaven on the basis I believe that Jesus came was born of a virgin died on the cross for our sins and rose again three days later and I put my faith and trust in Jesus alone for salvation and that I’m saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone and that Jesus lived the perfect life we can’t and kept the law we can’t. We owed a debt we can’t pay and He paid a debt He didn’t owe. Our righteousness is as filthy rags as Isaiah says which is why we need His imputed righteousness and have by faith who do you put your trust in for salvation?

    Can anyone if they are being honest say that Rome believes this if honest then the answer is no they don’t and can’t their traditions won’t allow it.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. What makes you think they can’t , oh ,their traditions. If Jesus has chosen somebody , nothing will stop Him. And not to worry, the Holy Spirit is a way better teacher than you can ever be,He will teach whosoever he calls.

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  18. Many have forgotten the MILLIONS Romanism has killed of true believers in Christ from Reformers to men and women and how much blood Rome has on her hands. Rome damns believers and Scripture like in Galatians 1 damns Rome there can be no peace or compromise with Rome.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Actually,most people prefer to say those deaths are on all Christians. The Catholic Church was the general Church,the representative of all Christians, before Luther,the Reformer and many others left it, and remember those people came to Christ in a traditional system that you think God cannot intervene in somehow. Most of the deaths before reformation, are imputed on Christians who were so eager to spread the Faith they forgot to do it God’s way. Plus, in history, we see the Reformers almost set a woman on fire because she was preaching the gospel in her house

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      1. Emilly, the Roman Communion was never co-extensive with the Catholic Church. Just because they claim the name of the Catholic Church does not make them the Catholic Church.

        The NT church was born on the day of pentecost (Acts 2) and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Extra biblical tradition holds that the Church of Antioch was the first gentile church. The early church of Rome was just one local chuch part of the unversal body of believers, the Catholic Church.

        Luke Timothy Johnson: The third classic mark of the church is that it is catholic. Before examining the term, it may be helpful to make the (I hope obvious) point that the creed does not say that the church is “Roman Catholic”. That term is, indeed, oxymoronic. It combines the element of universality with a highly particular adjective. The Roman Catholic tradition (the reader will remember it is my own) may believe the Roman tradition is all-encompassing, but that is simply mistaken.

        The term in Greek means “throughout the whole.” As applied in the creed to the ideal church, it means both a universality of extent and an inclusiveness that embraces differences within a larger unity.

        First, the catholic church is the one that exists everywhere, rather than simply in one place. Implicitly, then, catholicity asserts the general over the particular in any argument about the nature of the church. Thus, in his arguments against the North African sectarians the Donatists, Saint Augustine constantly held before them the fact that the truth as represented by his party was the truth for all other Christians throughout the empire. The Creed: What Christians Believe and Why it Matters, Crown Publishing Group, Dec 18, 2007, Pg 268-269

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  19. Tom how many times have we heard oh that’s just Paul’s opinion about women can’t be pastors or preacher when the Holy Spirit inspired him to write it it a fact not opinion to say otherwise show ignorance of Scripture.

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    1. So wait, do men have a course in how to shut women up too? Do you think what I think doesn’t matter? Anyway, I cannot learn in silence, I too have been given the Spirit of discernment and I too have to go out and share the gospel, I have also been called to evangelism. Plus, if I learnt in silence, I wouldn’t be a Christian in the first place.

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  20. Obviously the book Foxes book of Martyrs has not been read. Tom do you agree that the vast majority of Christians who died were at the hands of Rome even those there were wars between Protestants and Catholics.

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    1. BG, it would be hard to put an accurate number on it but I think most historians would agree the RC is responsible for millions of deaths between the subjugation of pagans, the crusades, the inquisition, and the persecution of Protestants. The last three popes have apologized for the murderous sanctions of past popes and prelates and we’ll see more apologies in the future.

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  21. Tom you and I know as Calvinists that Jesus died for those the Father gave Him the elect and that Jesus didn’t die for everyone nor is He interceding for those in Hell

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    1. I definitely lean toward Calvinism, BG. Somehow the Lord incorporates man’s free will into His sovereign plans, but I don’t understand exactly how the process works. I usually avoid debating Arminians unless they propagate such views as genuine believers losing their salvation.

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      1. It’s interesting how I post a truthful statement and said Catholic can’t believe what I said and objection it’s clear tradition is showing.

        Liked by 1 person

  22. Yes you are right Tom about the numbers but Rome can’t escape the fact she has blood on her hands even the Jesuit oath talks and killing Protestants and women.

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    1. I don’t blame you when it comes to ecumenism it’s beyond frustrating talking to those who agree with Rome I mean it’s obvious those who are ecumenical don’t read early church history.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Rome denies the authenticity of the Jesuit oath, which was published in 1689 by Protestant Robert Ware. Whether it’s authentic or not, the Jesuits engaged in so much skullduggery that European Catholic monarchs demanded the pope disband the order in 1773 (restored in 1814).

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  23. Tom have you heard Reformers almost set a woman on fire for preaching the Gospel in her home see the comments. Never heard that and hard to believe it.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I know some Protestants in England did persecute Catholics when Protestant monarchs (Edward VI, Elizabeth I) were enthroned, but comparing Protestant persecution of Catholics to Catholic persecution of Protestants is night and day.

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      1. Tom I talked to a family member on the phone conversation was fine and then I asked what movies they have seen and the said they watched the shack on pureflix said I should get purefliix. I didn’t say anything about the movie don’t know if it would have going well it’s the same person who likes Osteen. Please pray for them i will be seeing them soon

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      2. Yes, I will pray, BG. Some Christians were upset about The Shack because the film portrayed God the Father as a woman, but that wasn’t the worse thing. The author of the book, William P. Young is an unabashed Universalist and the book and movie pushed that view. Many believers have zero discernment.

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  24. I remember that he lifted up Christ, and his cross: He preached ‘Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.’
    Question is, Do I LIVE the gospel? Is Christ centered in my everyday life and my political views?

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    1. Sounds very “spirituual,” but Paul’s exhortations included being on the alert for false teachers and their false gospels and for ecumenical compromisers like Billy Graham, and now his successors.

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