Welcome to this week’s installment of our Reformanda Initiative podcast series! I’m excited to present the ministry of Dr. Leonardo De Chirico and his associates at Reformanda Initiative as they examine Roman Catholic theology in order to inform and equip evangelicals.
Episode #41: Should Evangelicals and Roman Catholics pray together?
Show Notes
In this episode we discuss an important question: Should Evangelicals and Roman Catholics pray together? Yes? No? Or maybe, but it depends? Join us as we dive into this controversial topic.
My Comments
Should Evangelicals and Roman Catholics pray together? This is one of those “where the tire meets the road” questions. I agree with the the Reformanda Initiative guys that the answer is, “it depends.” Gospel Christians should never pray at an ecumenical or interreligious gathering with those who believe a different gospel, like Roman Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., but there are situations where we can pray with individual Catholics who are seeking the Lord and are open to the genuine Gospel or in situations where our prayer is a witness/testimony to them.
In this 52-second video-short, Costi Hinn (forthegospel.org) asks apologist-evangelist, Mike Gendron, why the 5 Solas of the Reformation are important today?
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Below is a link to Mike Gendron’s Gospel outreach ministry to Roman Catholics, Proclaiming the Gospel.
I usually refrain from commenting on politics as a general rule, but this article caught my eye. Presidential candidate and Roman Catholic, Ron DeSantis, often tones down his Catholicism as a strategic ploy in his outreach to politically-minded evangelicals, but does he really need to do that in this day of ecumenical compromise and betrayal of the Gospel? Jonathan Falwell, pastor of the Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Virginia, and interim chancellor of Liberty University, invited DeSantis to speak at the school’s convocation on April 14th and undiscerningly introduced him as “a Champion for Christ.” Falwell also presented DeSantis with an honorary Doctor of Humanities (see photo above). Politically-focused evangelicals’ alliances with politically-conservative Roman Catholics muddy the Gospel every time.
The Roman Catholic church is steadily advancing towards “ordaining” women as deacons. The writer of this article, a female priest from a renegade Catholic group, protests that ordaining females to the subservient diaconate would be an attempt by the patriarchal church to appease women without sharing leadership. Jesus Christ did away with the sacerdotal priesthood with His once-for-all-time sacrifice on Calvary.
This past week, both liberal and conservative Catholic media reacted to pope Francis’ appointment of archbishop Víctor Manuel Fernández as the new prefect of the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (once known as the Holy Inquisition). Conservatives note with concern that Fernández’s views closely align with Francis’ progressive doctrine-bending pragmatism.
Anti-Francis, Catholic gadfly, archbishop Carlo Viganò, predicts that Bergoglio’s ongoing marginalization of conservative Catholics will lead to schism.
The all-boys, McQuaid Jesuit High School is considered one of Rochester’s most prestigious college prep schools (tuition = $16K/year). McQuaid teacher, Jesuit William O’Malley, was the toast of the town after he played a minor role in the 1973 blockbuster, “The Exorcist.” However, O’Malley was quietly shipped off to teach at Fordham University in 1986 after allegations of sexual abuse of students surfaced. A total of three former McQuaid students have sued the Rochester Catholic diocese citing sexual abuse by the recently deceased O’Malley. Six other McQuaid teachers have also been credibly accused of sexually abusing students. No doubt there were additional abusers as well, but they managed to slip under the radar. All of the lawsuits are on hold pending final resolution of the Rochester diocese bankruptcy case. McQuaid’s male students had to constantly keep an eye out for the “celibate” Jesuit predators while being indoctrinated with Roman Catholicism’s false gospel of salvation by sacramental grace and merit.
Thanks for joining us today as we continue to examine and respond to Catholic apologist, Karlo Broussard’s book, “Meeting the Protestant Response” (2022). This week, Broussard continues his five-part chapter in which he defends the Catholic doctrine of the intercession of the saints in heaven using Revelation 5:8 as his proof-text:
“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
Catholics pray to deceased individuals who have been “canonized” (officially sanctioned) as “saints” by the RCC. The church teaches that saints are in Heaven and have the ability to hear the prayers of their petitioners and act as mediators/intercessors with God on their behalf. Catholics interpret the twenty-four elders holding bowls full of incense/prayers in Rev. 5:8 as saintly mediators bringing the prayers of their earthly petitioners to God.
Protestant response #57: “We can’t be sure that the saints in heaven hear the prayers.”
Broussard writes, “(Evangelical apologist, Matt) Slick offers another counter-argument worth considering. This one concedes for argument’s sake that ‘prayers of the saints’ refers to petitions offered by Christians on earth. Slick’s target for this counter is the view that the twenty-four elders actually ‘hear’ (or know) the prayers of Christians on earth. He states his case plainly:
Nothing in that verse [referring to Rev. 5:8] says that anyone hears the prayers of the saints…The saints in heaven offering the prayers doesn’t mean that they can hear the prayers of people on earth.
Continues Broussard, “For Slick, since the text doesn’t say anything about the twenty-four elders actually hearing (knowing) our prayers, ‘the Roman Catholic Church has read a doctrine into the text,’ thereby violating ‘biblical truth.”’
Broussard’s response
Broussard begins by conceding for argument’s sake that if the elders in Rev. 5:8 don’t hear/have direct knowledge of the prayers of people on earth, they still intercede.
Broussard then presents three arguments as to why the elders do hear/know the prayers of the saints:
“Since the prayers can only be immaterial (unsealed) ideas, the only way that the elders could present the prayers to Jesus would be to know them.”
Broussard once again contends the elders in Rev. 5:8 are priests. He argues, just as the “Jewish priests knew the contents of the prayers that Jews offered to the Lord when (the priests) interceded for them” via sacrificial offerings, “it’s reasonable to think that (the elders in Rev. 5:8) would know the contents of the prayers” of the people on earth.
Broussard cites Tobit 12 and argues that the angel Raphael, “the one who brought (their) prayers into (God’s) glorious presence” (Tobit 12:12) seems to have a precise knowledge of Tobit and Sarah’s circumstances and the contents of their prayers.
My response
As with many of Broussard’s “answers to common comebacks to Catholic arguments,” this business with the elders of Rev. 5:8 is becoming redundant. I made the point the previous two weeks, but it’s worth reiterating that nowhere in the Old or New Testaments is there an example of a believer praying to anyone other than God. To do so would have been considered blatant idolatry by the Jews and Christians of the New Testament church. Not once in the thirteen Pauline epistles or in the other eight apostolic epistles do we read of praying to the dead. When Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He taught them to pray to God the Father (Luke 11:1-13), not to a future “saint.” The heretical practice of praying to “saints” was introduced by the nascent Roman church as an accommodation to paganism’s pantheon of patron gods and goddesses.
Let’s now address Broussard’s three points:
Yes, prayers are immaterial and only God can know the private thoughts and prayers of men and women (Psalm 139:2). Nowhere in the Bible do we see deceased humans having the divine power to hear/know private prayers.
Broussard once again states the elders in Rev. 5:8 are priests, as if this view was indisputable. Last week, we showed that the elders are not priests. See here. Jews did not confess their sins to the Levitical priests and did not share their private prayers with priests. See here. Broussard’s argument is based on Rome’s fallacious sacerdotal priesthood. Priestly sacrifice was eliminated by the High Priest, Jesus Christ, and His once-for-all-time sacrifice on Calvary (Hebrews 10:11-14).
Broussard continues to appeal to the Book of Tobit, an apocryphal writing of the intertestamental period that was not acknowledged as Scripture by Jesus Christ or by the Judean rabbis of that era, therefore it’s untenable to present the passage as a Scriptural proof-text. However, even in this apocryphal tale, Tobit and his daughter-in-law pray to God, NOT to Raphael, a clear contradiction of the Catholic model. Broussard’s apocryphal example doesn’t support his argument.
The elders (not priests) in Rev. 5:8 are commending the prayers of believers to God, much as the high priest commended the prayers and worship of the Israelites gathered at the tabernacle or as a church pastor commends the prayers and worship of his congregation. The elders of Rev. 5:8 are not heavenly mediators/intercessors as Broussard and the RCC claim.
Next week, Protestant response #58: “Even if the elders hear us and intercede for us, we’re still not justified in praying to them.”
Welcome to this week’s “Throwback Thursday” installment. Today, we’re going to revisit a post that was originally published back on April 27, 2017 and has been revised.
It seems to me that the term, “born again,” isn’t as popular in Christian circles as it was, say, thirty or forty years ago. Christians these days will say, “I’m an evangelical” rather than “I’m a born-again Christian.” Back when I was a Catholic teenager and young adult, Catholic friends, family, and myself were bemused by all the people claiming to be “born again.” “That’s so ridiculous,” we said. “Is a person supposed to crawl back inside their mother?,” we scoffed, not realizing we were repeating Nicodemus’ question in John 3:4. As Catholics, we had very little Bible knowledge because our church never encouraged us to read Scripture.
Several years later, through God’s Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I came to the knowledge that I was a sinner on my way to hell and I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior by faith alone. At that wonderful and blessed moment, I was born again! My Savior’s perfect righteousness was imputed to me, I had no righteousness of my own. I have eternal life and fellowship with God through my Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ. All genuine Christians understand a person is born again, spiritually reborn, at the moment they trust in Christ.
However, Catholics have an entirely different concept of what it means to be “born again.”
On the Catholic talk radio show I listen to, you’ll periodically hear the following question and answer:
Caller: Father, I was talking to my Protestant friend the other day and he asked me if I was “born again.” What should I tell him?
Priest: [With indignant anger] You tell him you were born again when you were baptized!!!
The Catholic church teaches that baptism (which takes place at infancy for the vast majority – 80% – of Catholics) washes away all sin and then by subsequently participating in the church’s sacraments (eucharist, confession, confirmation, last rites), a Catholic allegedly receives graces which supposedly give them the ability to avoid sin so that they can hopefully be in a “state of grace” (without serious sin) immediately prior to death so as to merit Heaven. For Catholics, salvation is a process, which involves a lifelong effort to “cooperate with grace” and obey the Ten Commandments and church rules. But a Catholic can never have assurance of salvation because they don’t really know if they’ve done enough to be in a “state of grace” from one day to the next. Bible Christians know we could never be in a Vatican-defined “state of grace.” The only person who ever walked this Earth who was without sin, “serious” or otherwise, for even one day was Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God.
The Catholic definition of being born again (i.e., baptism followed by a lifelong process of ritual and works) is antithetical to the Biblical teaching of accepting Jesus Christ as Savior by faith alone in a moment of time (and then following Him as Lord).
I’m sure there are some Catholics who become so discouraged by trying to obey their church’s religious laundry list that they finally just collapse at the feet of Jesus and beg for His forgiveness and salvation. They’ve been saved in spite of their church, not because of it. No Catholic will find salvation by adhering to their church’s standard faith-works theology.
Of course, sitting in an evangelical church pew doesn’t make anyone a Christian, either. Everyone must individually accept Jesus Christ as Savior by faith alone.
Excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding merited salvation: “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion (a reference to baptismal regeneration – Tom). Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity,we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. – CCC 2010
⚠️ Note: This is not an endorsement of “Godspell.” Please read the entire post.
Does anyone remember the song, “Day by Day,” from 51 years ago? I was on YouTube recently and the site presented me with some random videos based upon past selections. “Day by Day” was among the offerings (see far below). I remember that song VERY well. It was released in May 1972 and actually climbed to #13 on the Billboard singles chart. The song was from the off-Broadway musical, “Godspell,” and the lead vocalist was one of the cast members, 22YO Robin Lamont.
“Godspell” was (very) loosely based on the Gospel of Matthew, but in a very light-hearted manner. John-Michael Tebelak (d. 1985) wrote Godspell in 1970 as his master’s thesis while at Carnegie Mellon University. An Associated Press article from 2021 recounts how Tebelak came to write the play:
“The genesis of the show was sparked by an unhappy encounter: The spiritual Tebelak went to an Easter Sunday church service but was deemed inappropriately attired and was frisked (for drugs) by a parishioner who was an off-duty cop with the assent of the rest of the congregation. ‘He was devastated. He walked out of there heartbroken and furious as many deeply spiritual Christian kids in the early ’70s,’ says (original cast member, Peggy) Gordon. It made him return to the message of Jesus, his relationship with the poor and his message of love.” 1
Following its initial off-Broadway presentation, young composer, Stephen Schwartz, another Carnegie Mellon alumnus, was brought in to re-score the musical.
“Godspell” ran off-Broadway from 1971 to 1976, was released as a movie in 1973,2 and was presented on Broadway from 1976-1977. Many evangelicals and fundamentalists of that era disparaged the musical as the “hippie gospel” or the “clown gospel.” They were especially disturbed that “Godspell” did not include a depiction of the Jesus character’s resurrection.
I’ve never seen “Godspell” and I don’t intend to, but when I heard “Day by Day” on AM radio in 1972 I liked it a lot. I was fifteen at the time and finishing my sophomore year of Catholic high school. It wasn’t cool to be “religious” as a fifteen-year-old in 1972, but the tune resonated with me.
The song is comprised of a chorus that is repeated six times. Yes, six!
Day by day, Day by day, Oh, Dear Lord, three things I pray: To see thee more clearly, Love thee more dearly, Follow thee more nearly, Day by day
After the second stanza, the rest of the cast joins Lamont and the melody gets progressively livelier with each repetition.
When I listened to the lyrics of the song I was thinking, “That’s the kind of relationship I want with God.” Simple, strong, trusting faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Day by day. Not the ceremonial, sacramental, religious formalism I was being taught in Catholic high school.
Well, I wouldn’t advise anyone to get their theology from “Godspell.” God’s Word goes much deeper than an off-Broadway musical interpretation. However, the Lord used “Day by Day,” among many other things, to draw me to Him. I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior by faith alone in 1983.
“Day by Day” was written by young Stephen Schwartz who went on to have a long and notable career writing songs for Broadway musicals and films. Schwartz is of Jewish ethnicity and declines to discuss his religious beliefs.
Robin Lamont continued acting after “Godspell,” but roles steadily declined. She went on to marry and raise a family. Looking for part-time work, Lamont reached out to a private investigator who was looking to hire former-actors for their improvisational skills. She got the job. Working in that field for eight years motivated her to go to law school. After graduation, she worked as an assistant DA for another eight years. Lamont retired from law in 2001 to write crime/mystery novels. When asked about her religious beliefs in 2012, Lamont responded that she doesn’t have a traditional Christian view of God. She believes God is “a force in nature.” 3
I enjoyed listening to “Day by Day” again after all of these many years. There are themes of commitment to the Lord and joy in Him. Sometimes we believers are way too dour. I can use this song as a simple, but heartfelt and joyful melodic prayer. Schwartz and Lamont may not believe, but I do.
I hope you’ll listen to “Day by Day” (3:22 minutes) below and share your thoughts. The video clip is from the 1973 “Godspell” movie with Lamont reprising her theatrical performance and her 1972 recording.
Welcome to this week’s installment of our Reformanda Initiative podcast series! I’m excited to present the ministry of Dr. Leonardo De Chirico and his associates at Reformanda Initiative as they examine Roman Catholic theology in order to inform and equip evangelicals.
Episode #40: Same Words, Different Worlds. Do Roman Catholics and Evangelicals Believe the Same Gospel?
Show Notes
Listen as we kick off season 3 of the RI Podcast by discussing Leonardo De Chirico’s upcoming book, Same Words, Different Worlds. Do Roman Catholics and Evangelicals Believe the Same Gospel? (IVP Apollos, 2021).
Do Evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics share a common orthodoxy, as promoted by initiatives such as Evangelicals and Catholics Together? Or do the profound differences between Evangelical and Catholic theology and how they view the doctrines of Christ, the Church and salvation mean they actually hold to very different gospels?
Same Words, Different Worlds explores whether Evangelicals and Catholics have the same gospel if they have core commitments that contradict. It lays out how the words used to understand the gospel are the same but differ drastically in their underlying theology.
With keen insight, Leonardo de Chirico looks at various aspects of Roman Catholic theology – including Mary, the intercession of the saints, purgatory and papal infallibility – from an Evangelical perspective to argue that the theological framework of Roman Catholicism is not faithful to the biblical gospel. Only by understanding the real differences can genuine dialogue flourish.
Same Words, Different Worlds will deepen your understanding of the differences between Evangelical and Catholic theology, and how the Reformation is not over in the church today.
My Comments
Roman Catholics and evangelicals share many common religious terms such as “salvation in Christ,” “grace,” “faith,” and “gospel,” but define those terms quite differently. In his book, “Same Words, Different Worlds,” Dr. De Chirico examines how Rome’s gospel of salvation by sacramental grace and merit is diametrically opposed to the genuine Good News! Gospel of salvation by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. See my review of “Same Words, Different Worlds” here.
In this 40-second video-short, Costi Hinn (forthegospel.org) and apologist-evangelist, Mike Gendron, discuss Roman Catholics who boast, “I was born Catholic and I will die Catholic!”
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Below is a link to Mike Gendron’s Gospel outreach ministry to Roman Catholics, Proclaiming the Gospel.
Way back in 2017, I posted a review of Netflix’s seven-part-series, “The Keepers,” about the unsolved 1969 murder of a young nun, Cathy Cesnik (see my review here). The evidence seemed to point to priest, Joseph Maskell (d. 2001), one of the chaplains at the all-girls Catholic high school where Cesnik taught. Maskell had sexually abused a number of the students and one of the victims had confided in Cesnik, who took initial steps to expose Maskell, but then disappeared. Her body was discovered a few months later. Twenty-year-old, Joyce Helen Malecki was also murdered in the Baltimore area at around the same time. The FBI will soon be exhuming the body of Malecki in an effort to establish a DNA connection to Maskell. The priest had links to the Malecki family, being pastor of the parish they attended prior to being assigned as chaplain at the high school. Due to the RCC’s rule of mandatory celibacy for its clergy, Catholic seminaries were both magnets and incubators of deviancy.
For centuries, the Roman Catholic church declared cremation was a mortal sin, but in 1963 pope Paul VI reversed course and ruled cremation was allowable. See my relevant post here. Funerary businesses are now offering “alkaline hydrolysis” as an option for environmentally-conscious customers (no emissions). The RCC hasn’t officially condemned alkaline hydrolysis, but doesn’t like it because most of the resulting liquified remains go irreverently “down the drain.” I don’t care what they do with my ol’ carcass after I die. I’ll be with the Lord in Heaven!
Interesting article. Pope Francis recently appointed archbishop Víctor Manuel Fernandez as Prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF), once known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition, which coordinated the persecution of Protestants in Catholic Europe back in the day. Fernandez has indicated the dicastery will be easing up considerably as the RCC’s doctrinal watchdog. Some conservative Catholics view this as further evidence of the “suspended Magisterium” marking Bergoglio’s doctrine-bending papacy.
Roman Catholics are so scrupulous about the minutiae details of their rote mass liturgy, however, some warm-and-fuzzy Catholics introduced the practice of holding hands during the portion of the mass when the “Our Father” is recited. Many conservative Catholics didn’t like this unofficial, kumbaya-ish innovation and it’s been the source of some tension at U.S. Catholic parishes. At this point, the U.S. Catholic bishops have not ruled either way on the practice. There’s so much focus on liturgical minutiae in the RCC, but there’s no genuine Gospel of salvation by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.
In 2018, pragmatic pope Francis brokered a treaty with the Chinese communist government, which allowed Beijing a role in the selection of bishops among other things. Last April, the communists unilaterally installed Joseph Shen Bin as bishop of Shanghai without the Vatican’s input. Shin is vice-president of the quisling Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. Francis dragged his feet, but finally approved the appointment last week. Conservative Catholics are not pleased with Francis’ “eat crow” accommodations to the communists, but the pope pragmatically figures some cooperation is better than no cooperation.
Catholic culture is filled with references to the “sacred heart” of Jesus (i.e., churches and schools named, “Sacred Heart,” as well as personal “devotions”). This fanaticism with a biological organ is so bizarre. See my relevant post here.
The Roman Catholic diocese of Ogdensburg, NY filed for bankruptcy this past week making it the 30th U.S. Catholic diocese to do so and the 6th in New York State. Dioceses strategically file for bankruptcy to block financial assets from victims of priest sexual abuse and cover-up.
Shame on all undiscerning “worship leaders” at conservative evangelical churches who use music originating from heretical Bethel and Hillsong.
New book from Timothy Kauffman and Rob Zins
Evangelical apologists Timothy Kauffman and Rob Zins have both written multiple books examining Roman Catholicism and now they’ve co-authored “A GOSPEL CONTRARY!: A Study of Roman Catholic Abuse of History and Scripture to Propagate Error,” which was published on April 24th and is available at Amazon (see here). I’ll be posting a review in a few months.
excatholic4christ 